Integrity in posting to Share trading Forums Freehold Date:...

Integrity in posting to Share trading Forums

Freehold
Date: 11/12/15
Time: 19:00:03
Post #: 16598015

It a difficult one announcing when you have sold ... I think that holding a position (especially a substantial holding) in a company and suddenly announcing that you have sold out immediately or shortly after your last trade is often construed by many as an attempt to D/Ramp a stock.... and in 90% of cases thats exactly what they are doing. Unfortunately many unscrupulous traders use this strategy for that very reason. To force the price down to rebuy again at a lower price a practice I find particularly distasteful and deem those that execute this strategy as lacking in trading general skill (not the least moral fibre...).
Personally I prefer to let the stock follow its own path after I have left and not be influenced or forced down by the fact that I have left the register. I am quite happy to let people know when I am entering taking pilots or growing my posy early as they can choose to buy or not... but am hesitant to announce when I have left, usually not mentioning it at all or leaving it till a few weeks after the fact so it can plot its own course after Ive gone. I think its important that people determine their own time when to sell depending on their own goals and exit strategy, sometimes I sell way too early anyway. I think all great trades are made at the point of entry ... If you don't have a good entry you'll the chances of a good exit are depleted significantly.


heraclitus
Date: 11/12/15
Time: 20:35:54
Post #: 16598458

This is an interesting one for me, as i know that i'm seen by some on HC as a bit of a BS detector and happy to have a scrap with someone if i think they're potentially putting others (especially newbies) at financial risk. I'm actually pretty passionate about this sort of thing and don't buy the excuse, "we all have to go through it in the beginning" even though it does seem that way in practice. My argument would be, if you can save someone a little bit of financial pain and maybe they learn a little bit quicker, then perhaps you've done a decent deed.

Now I doubt there'd be anyone on HC not guilty of a bit of excited posting, which is more hype than fact. So nobody is 100% innocent. Everyone probably has their own moral compass, which means 10 people might have 10 different views on what's ok and what's overstepping the mark.

What's not ok to me is:

- Promoting/pumping stocks, all the while selling all or majority stakes in the stock you're promoting.
- Organised buying groups. It's illegal for a start but I'm sure the people involved - like all financial felons - can justify the behaviour in their own minds, as the act itself is quite abstract and detached from the people impacted at the other end. I have my own ideas on who might fit this category and tread carefully with these members, regardless of reputation or otherwise.
- Downramping. I actually don't think this is all that dangerous, compared to ramping, as it's usually just bitter members that have clearly missed out or got their call wrong. You can see this a mile away. What's a real shame is when you provide reasonable and logical feedback towards a stock with a cheersquad and get accused of downramping. Funnily enough, the more of these calls you get right (usually calling something overvalued) the less accusations you get and you sometimes notice those who have had a dig end up following you.
I think another point that has to be considered is intent and that brings me to a conversation i had offline this week with a very well known member who was recently banned. I don't think he'll mind me saying he was a little upset with my posting towards him on a certain thread. While it was actually another member and a separate incident from the past that caused the banning, he felt that i had portrayed him as attempting to mislead other members. My stance is that this member communicated poorly with several of his posts and it would be easy to have misconstruded that certain comments had a less than angelic intent. However i'd also be the first to admit that i think, on a scale of 1-10 in the corporate world, he's probably a 2 or 3 for "craftiness", compared to many of the sharks getting around. So apologies to that person if their intent was 100% genuine the whole time. By the same token, i was coming from a genuine place, certainly with no personal gain to be had and no motive, from raising a few questions, which i thought relevant and which several others seemed to think relevant. Bottom line is that misunderstandings happen and that i think the member is an ok bloke. I mightn't necessarily conduct myself in some of the same ways but there are more ways than mine. The key element for me is that i thought the stock was well and truly overvalued on open and didn't want to see other members buying shares off those on the inside. The fact that it's fallen 50% since is relevant only in that it's illustrative but it's also irrelevant in that even if the stock had rallied 50% and held the gains, members should feel free to comment if they think something is overhyped, overpriced etc. Based on reading some members' comments, it can be daunting going against the pack and there's some big personalities on HC but the more balance the better. Members looking out for each other is a great feature to have of an investment forum.



TraderGT
Date: 11/12/15
Time: 20:52:58
Post #: 16598527

1. What does integrity mean in this context
   
   It means someone that posts truthful and accurate information to start. Some will either stretch the truth/public information or come to a crazy conclusion.....for example I saw a few posters go around at AGM time posting that something big could well happen etc etc. When you reality nothing market sensitive is released at an AGM....
   
   Secondly its someone that listens and appreciates other posters comments......I feel many on share trading forums just post what they want others to hear and don't really read what is said......or they will twist peoples views but posting frequent over positive comments. To add to this some like to come into a thread and take the leadership or boss role and tell posters what they should think.....poor integrity.
   
   People often mention they have spoken to management and get a great vibe or feeling......that's a dangerous one. Speaking to management is always an interesting experience and one I now do less often as research into a company and its prospects achieves more then calling a director that will only tell you the positive elements of the company.....a biased view.
   
   ......sadly it does exist and sadly I think does suck in newer posters - ignorance is a rampers delight .......Bossivic was one of those and HC mods did the right thing by banning that poster.
   
   2. Should one strive to show integrity whilst most around lack it?
   
   Sometimes this is a difficult task when you can be very frustrated when a poster comes in a starts ramping a stock your invested in.
   
   I have learnt to continue posting in an unbiased way and to provide posters with information in which they can continue with there own research.
   
   IMO -@forrestfield is the best poster regarding this question - he leads by example even when the thread has gone feral.
   
   3. Consequence of poor posting integrity
   
   Of time posters lose respect for someone posting with poor integrity and they can find themselves quickly in arguments when arriving to a new thread.
   
   These people are easy to find.....you can look at there previous posts and find they post 50+ times on one stock for a day or few days then disappear and do it on the next stock etc etc......it also takes a lot of effort IMO!
   
   4. Can one repeatly profit from being disingenuous or posting with poor integrity (If so how long)
   
   If you really wanted to post with poor integrity long term you would need to limit the number of "pump and dumps" your involved with.......if you did it too often then your name will be trashed quickly IMO.
   
   It would just take too much effort and time!
   
   5. Benefits of posting with integrity does it mean reduced profits?
   
   IMO - No not at all!
   
   Most that post with poor integrity are day traders or "flippers" for pips
   
   A undervalued quality company can be found and a poster can post there research and share in conversation and easily make Multi bags whilst posting with INTEGRITY!
   
   6. Other
   
   If you wanna be a trader long term you need to find a REAL way to make a living, posting with poor integrity may work for a short period but not for long!

forrestfield
Date: 12/12/15
Time: 02:11:29
Post #: 16599468

Integrity - really interesting topic... before I think about others integrity I consider following points re investing:

1.we should always keep in mind that people posts on stocks based on vested interest...

2. we should always trust ourselves... even then we should be critical of our own judgement.

3. Keep reviewing our own investments... if something does not eventuate as per initial plans perhaps we have missed something in the first place.

4. Listen to those contradict. Difference of opinion is truly a blessing and we get it plenty at HC... if somebody is questioning your judgement does not mean they are against us personally perhaps they have seen something which we have missed initially... people like @heraclitus, @pisces, @nihilism, @strauss are very good at this...

5. Avoid being rich over night, no such thing... a solid sound strategy is very important... hence avoid the pumped stocks...

6. Always do your research... I know we hear it 100 times a day... but honestly it is the only thing which separates a good investment from a bad one...

Now integrity:
What others do, rarely matters to me... what I do, does matter... I have a believe whatever we do, have consequences.. a wrong doing is always a wrong doing no matter where it happens...

I personally feel like share trading is a place where large groups of people along with insiders are manipulating others for their own advantage... and they have given it a sophisticated name which is Share Trading / stock market...

How I avoid it?
I simply do my research and try to buy things at real low value and then whatever happens it does not effect me much.. To do this, I normally have a price target for everything which does fluctuate but mostly been followed... if a stock is pumped I lock in my gains only when it hits my target...

At HC, I now have no buy or sell disclosure... I also keep saying that I only posts on stocks I hold... and most importantly, I decrease number of posts substantially on a stock where I see a pump... I simply don't want to be part of nasty stuff...

And lastly, it comes back to me again... I need to answer myself every day... also, I have no right to judge others so I consider everyone is simply stating the truth to the best of their knowledge... WHAT I have to do is just listen to myself... make my own decision based on my own research...

if someone else is making money by false statements, it's their fault and they will pay back to mother nature sooner or later... EXTREME BORING I KNOW but that's how I think Lol


pisces
Date: 12/12/15
Time: 10:19:11
Post #: 16600086

That's a good point you raise re personality disorders Techmeister . Some posters post for self aggrandisement otherwise they wouldn't go racing onto threads where they have no pecuniary interest and give an opinion. If they're doing that often it's something more than community spirit . You shouldn't discount their opinion ,but that's all it is ,and they want to be right.

As for stupid disorders I originally thought some level of market expertise was warranted before you put something up other than a question but it's become apparent over time to me that there are many people around with no idea. As long as they don't get narky for reasons of ignorance there's no harm in that. Everyone has to start somewhere and this is as good an initial learning curve as anywhere. The better posters treat everyone with respect ,although some people won't stop until they have a fight. To me this is where the entertainment factor comes in ,it's interesting to read these threads from time to time ,because it's not possible to be an effective trader if you are so emotionally bound in your own spin . You hardly ever see posters like FF, Heraclitus ,PB ,Freehhold , Glads ,lose their cool despite high levels of agitation and that's the sign of someone who has the basics of a stock in perspective.

As for ramping some people just ramp because they have no other way of expressing their desire for a stock to go up . It's usualLy just over enthusiastic people wanting to make money . I think the threads overall are a lot cleaner now of any organised ramping which to me has died a bit of a natural death on HC. People are more aware of the signs of a pump these days I feel . It does occur in a burst ,but doesn't seem to last more than a day or two , or for as long as the spike continues . I think people have learnt to be extremely wary of buying spikes , the emotional FOMO is a fever that has gripped everyone who plays the markets at some point ,this is when speculation and ramping is displayed in its finest forms ,but I could be wrong ,I think generally it's over enthusiasm.
Which I guess can have the same outcome if you get suckered in.

The point you raise about randomness is worth highlighting . I've learnt things from people whom I thought were otherwise uniformed. Some people just lack the ability to express themselves clearly but every so often someone says something that gives me a perspective on a stock that I otherwise wouldn't have had . The HC community at large is focused on following hearts I believe but I've come across many people who don't post that often ,or perhaps do so in a quieter more succinct way ,who are extremely clever and well versed in the market ,who are at least equal to most of the people who post frequently . And some of them know a great deal about particular stocks.

There are thousands of pitfalls in the market and many strategies to navigate your way through the mire ,but to get to the point of this thread which is what happens on HC , I think to approach what you read with a decent dose of skepticism and cynicism is generally good for your bank balance. But at the same time keep an open mind to discovering ideas and opportunities in stocks . Some of those opportunities are hidden away , the stocks that everyone seems to be jumping on and posting about aren't in my view where the easiest money is made.

And at the end of the day the decision to buy or sell is your own . If someone has unduly influenced you in that regard the outcome is worn by you ,there is no redress ,so think clearly before you jump in.


pisces
Date: 12/12/15
Time: 12:46:02
Post #: 16600579

This is why the market is so perplexing . I generally do the opposite of what I tell every else to do . That's because I've plotted my own path forged by years of experience,contacts ,what works for me, what doesn't, coming to terms with my own temperament . So most of the things traders tell people to do on HC ,I don't . But for the vast majority the standard advice is good advice ,position sizing,stop losses , buy uptrends ,sell downtrends , be very aware of market conditions .For anyone starting out ,or who isn't able to handle losses ,make sure you don't have losses you can't handle ,have an exit plan if it doesn't work out. In your particular instance you said you bought for a technical reason which has now been not validated ,so without knowing the stock or the circumstances,on principle you should sell

I'm not particularly interested in trading per se and getting an earn ,I'm more interested in making a lot of money and I'm prepared to wear the risks that go with that . So I don't buy markets or sectors I buy stocks . If I like a stock and the chart looks terrible I'm excited . I'm happy putting large amounts in to downbeaten stocks . I'm very patient ,I don't like holding lots of stocks . I like to get in before anything starts and just wait. It works often enough to have some big wins . Sometimes it doesn't. . If you don't have the temperament for that style of investing don't do it

Your day to day investor/trader would have the percentages far greater in their favor by doing the opposite. But be aware that there is no one and only way of making money .Everything can work on occasions for somebody. Posters who I believe have integrity and can teach a style suitable for public consumption would include FF , who is a value investor with a trading strategy and Paddington Bear who is just a gun chartist who likes trading with entries into uptrends and an exit path . Just follow these sorts of people and you can get a feel for how they operate . But we're talking mainly specs there .

Heraclitus is an investor closer to my style and is probably more sensible with appropriate position sizing. He is very good at identifying value and holding



Freehold
Date: 12/12/15
Time: 17:43:49
Post #: 16601565

A general lack of integrity was well part of the reason I started the short term trading competition due to the fact there was so many people trading out there claiming they were "the best" or "Super stars" and that you should trade what they trade to become wealthy. One recent poster even had "follow me and it will rain gold coins" or something similar in their Sig. However to cut through the crap I thought OK lets create a competition that shows exactly how good these people were on a level playing field to provide transparency to the greater HC Community on their accuracy over a prolonged period of time. The reality was by and large that the that the ones that were modest /quiet achievers were far more profitable that the self proclaimed expert stock pickers.

There are shooting stars as I like to call them that burn brightly for a period of time then fizzle out (or get snuffed out -Perm suspension by mods), or go bankrupt due to poor trading skill or for whatever reason they fizzle ultimately I think is the façade can only be maintained for a limited amount of time before their lack of credibility / integrity or ego or bank balance catches up with them. Ie the greater HC population becomes aware of their mode of operation and lack of sincerity, pumping 1 minute dumping the next then in the blink of an eye pumping the same stock again ie. A 360 degree transition in sentiment in the space of a single trading day (or an hour) sometimes. If I had to count in the last 10 years the number of times a poster was 100% behind a stock then 100% against after selling and then 100% for it again I would be into the 1000's by now.

I think there is nothing more important than maintaining a high level of integrity when you post it is pivotal IMHO (Hotcopper posters have long memories). This integrity can be displayed in many ways through honesty in posting and disclosure through to offering timely advice or mentoring people new to trading. It can be done by shining a bright torch on dubious rampers and hollow and disingenuous downrampers. It can be by providing accurate tips on a consistent basis based purely on either high quality and detailed FA and TA analysis or both and disclosing how you came to your recommendation or many other ways . If you can combine all these factors that would be the ideal.

However, Hotcopper is basically similar to real life (a cross section of society really) in that you can guarantee that there will be all types of folks reading. Some intellects/nerdy, some compassionate, some liars, some con-artists, some who waffle, some funny, some you can't stand, some uneducated or even disadvantaged, Some with mental issues and even some criminal types etc etc . As with real life the you need to quickly come to the conclusion about what type of person each one you meet is. The more exposure over time you have to a person the more accurate you judgement will be. So if you display a high level of integrity in your posting over along period of time your HC following and reputation will grow quickly and more than likely so will your ability to gather important and key knowledge from other posters and I would expect over time so your wealth grow more rapidly.