Hi all, make of this what you will but I have been doing some research on the NSW governement website and found some interesting transcripts.. Albeit, some of this is from 2006, but Mr Watkins seems pretty fond of smartcards.
IAN JAMES GLASSON, Director General, Ministry of Transport, sworn and examined: The Hon. CHARLIE LYNN: My question is in relation to the Public Transport Ticketing Corporation Tcard. Minister, I understand the 2006-07 budget indicates an underspend of $67 million in 2005-06, and a further delay in completion of the project to 2008. I refer to an article in the Sydney Morning Herald on 6 July 2006 referring to an Auditor-General's report. The article stated: The State Government has already spent $54 million on the proposed integrated ticketing system—which is now six years late—and has set aside another $85 million in this year's budget. … Mr Harris said if ERG folded the future of the contract would be uncertain, and the $54 million the Government has spent would be at risk. Shares in the ERG Group, worth about $26.43 during the tech boom, this week fell to 8.2 cents. Its accumulated losses are about $550 million. Will you admit that you have failed Sydney commuters in regard to the introduction of the Tcard? Mr JOHN WATKINS: There are a few references there I need to deal with. To answer your last question first, no, I will not agree with that. My most recent advice from the Public Transport Ticketing Corporation is that only $5 million has been paid to ERG. You then asked the question if ERG was for sale. If any government supplier was to fold—we talked about Custom Coaches in the previous section. If that was to go under for some reason, that would cause problems for the Government, yes, but there is no indication that that is the case. You referred to the share price of ERG. I understand in the past week the share price, which did drop considerably, has gone up, and the advice to me is very strong support from the owner, the chief backer of ERG, for the product, because ERG has products coming online this year and next year in Sydney, in Seattle and some other locations that are being looked at positively. The real issue about the Tcard is the technical difficulties in loading the multiplicity of products onto it. There are over 100 different types of product that need to be loaded on, when you consider it is to do ferries, private and public buses and rail. That is technologically a difficult thing to do. Few other cities around the world have gone to such a form of ticketing and nowhere else in Australia has it without difficulty. I understand Seoul has recently gone to something like this and has rushed it and caused major difficulties because the technology was not right. I have made it very clear publicly that the timetable that was announced in the past has not been kept—and I am criticised for that—but my advice very strongly is I am not going to rush a new ticketing system that potentially will impact on more than one million passengers a day unless I am satisfied on behalf of those customers that all the technical issues have been resolved. The Tcard is already in the hands of more than 300,000 school kids that use private buses to get to and from school. A field trial for buses in the inner west has been advertised recently and will commence in early October. That will involve State Transit routes that come down King Street, and the Punchbowl Bus Company. That field trial will run till the end of the year. We were looking for, and I think we have achieved, 1,000 volunteers. There is also a rail field trial proposed. We are waiting that conclusion of testing of Legacy equipment before we move into that. But, again, I am not going to rush a new ticketing system. I want it introduced flawlessly. If you ever want to really get a sense of it—and I hope you do—go down and stand on Town Hall station just inside the ticket gates any morning from about 8.15 onwards. You will see the tens of thousands of people flowing pretty effortlessly through those ticket gates. That is how we are going to do it with Tcard. If that means it is delayed a bit and I am criticised for it, so be it. I am not going to impose something on the travelling public until I am certain it is working well. The field trial is about to commence with buses. The card is in the hands of private school kids. It is coming and I welcome it and look forward to it. The Hon. CHARLIE LYNN: You may have explained it but why was there a need to update your contract as stated in your press release on 5 July 2006? Can you advise the Committee whether the ERG Group met all of its obligations under the old contract? TRANSPORT ESTIMATES 42 FRIDAY 8 SEPTEMBER 2006
Mr JOHN WATKINS: There were delays, and that is why we negotiated the new contract. The new contract protects the Government. We make payments when milestones are reached. That was renegotiated. We also negotiated a strong entitlement to the IP: we have access to it. What has troubled this project has been the delays caused by the technological difficulties. We have made accommodation for that in a prudent way that protects the taxpayer. I think that is exactly what you would expect of the State Government. In the meantime we do have a system of ticketing in New South Wales, which are certainly is available to us as MPs, but it is also available to members of the public. They can buy tickets that can be used in government services—ferry, bus and train. Of course, it does not have the ease-of-use that the T-card will have. That is why we are moving down that path. The Hon. CHARLIE LYNN: Could you advise the Committee of the details of the new contract, the benchmarks that ERG must achieve before the Government makes payments and the timelines for those benchmarks? Mr JOHN WATKINS: We will try to give you the details that you are looking for. Mr GLASSON: If they are not complete we will take the question on notice. As I understand it, the contract is very detailed in terms of the performance specifications that the technology and equipment have to meet prior to final certification to go into service. The renegotiations in the middle of the year in no way changed or diluted any of those performance benchmarks. There is probably a very specific technical answer about every single performance hurdle but my understanding is that they are in the contract and they are very clear. The Hon. CHARLIE LYNN: What is the total expenditure on the introduction of Tcard by all government agencies and what is the total expenditure by the ERG Group? Mr JOHN WATKINS: We will take that on notice. The Hon. CHARLIE LYNN: Why is the total expenditure to 30 June 2006 on Tcard, according to the 2006-07 Budget Paper No. 4, which is $53.87 million, less than the total expenditure to 30 June 2005 as stated in the 2005-06 budget paper, which was $55.79 million? Mr JOHN WATKINS: Sorry, you have lost me. We will take that on notice. The Hon. CHARLIE LYNN: Why did you state in a radio interview on 2UE on 6 July 2006 that the Government had spent only $5 million on the project, contrary to your budget papers? Mr JOHN WATKINS: I cannot recall the context of the conversation that I had. I do not even remember having it; I will take your word for it. That is the $5 million that has been paid to ERG, which at the end of the day is the critical issue. The conversation was probably in response to allegations that huge amounts of money had been paid to ERG without any product being provided. The point I was making was that only $5 million has been paid. There are now clear milestones for the next payments being made. But the milestones have to be achieved for the payments to be made. The Hon. CHARLIE LYNN: What did the Government spend on Tcard for the 2005-06 financial year? Mr JOHN WATKINS: They would be costs for the different agencies undertaking work. In the 2005-06 year we had not established the Public Transport Ticketing Corporation; that began on 1 July. So it would be the total costs of different agencies in supporting the development of Tcard. It may be difficult to put detailed costings on that but I will try to provide the information. The Hon. Dr ARTHUR CHESTERFIELD-EVANS: Minister, can you confirm that periodical ticketing—specifically the weekly, monthly and yearly travel passes—will be retained under the Tcard system? Mr JOHN WATKINS: This is one of the issues we face in moving to an electronic system. The Tcard is like a credit card. As you get on a bus you will swipe across a face. You will not dip the card but swipe it across. There will be a beep-beep. When you get off you will beep-beep it again. TRANSPORT ESTIMATES 43 FRIDAY 8 SEPTEMBER 2006
You will be charged according to the distance you travel—GPS technology and so forth. The same with trains: you will be charged according to the distance you travel. That is what we have been trying to do with public transport fares over a period, and it is sensible. You should be charged about the same rate for your length of travel no matter which form of public transport you use. There needs to be some simplification of the multiplicity of products that are available. Inevitably that will happen when we move to a Tcard. The Hon. Dr ARTHUR CHESTERFIELD-EVANS: Would that not be highly regressive? The people who are poorer live further away and their fares will be much greater, and they will not be able to benefit from the weekly and monthly passes. Mr JOHN WATKINS: We will come to weeklies and monthlies in a minute. It is currently the case that the further you travel the more you pay. It is $45 a week to travel by train from Penrith to the CBD whereas it is $400 a week if you use a private motor vehicle. It is about 10 per cent of the cost of driving a car—that is, if you have the capacity to catch a train. But on your question about what concession would be available once Tcard is introduced, as it develops and as we get close to introduction of the Tcard we will determine what form of concessional tickets are available. We have not determined that as yet because we need to get over a range of other technical issues before such a discussion occurs. We have not made up our mind about that. The Hon. Dr ARTHUR CHESTERFIELD-EVANS: What is the projected annual cost of extending the country pensioner excursion ticket to cover travel on private bus services? Mr JOHN WATKINS: We will take that on notice. The Hon. Dr ARTHUR CHESTERFIELD-EVANS: How many pensioner travel vouchers have been used in New South Wales since March 2006 and how many were used in the corresponding period of the previous year? Mr JOHN WATKINS: A lot and a lot more. I do not have that level of detail. I am sure we will be able to find it. We will take those questions on notice. The Hon. Dr ARTHUR CHESTERFIELD-EVANS: Given the rising number of senior citizens on bus services, what steps are being taken to improve accessibility with stepless-entry doors? Mr JOHN WATKINS: All new buses are wheelchair accessible and therefore have stepless entry. The 1,000 new buses coming into Sydney over the next seven years will all be wheelchair accessible. That will increase the percentage of the public and private bus fleet substantially. I think the rate in State Transit is about 30 per cent and across the board it is about 25 per cent. The 1,000 new vehicles will be a substantial increase. However, it will take some time before all buses are wheelchair accessible. As more companies have a higher percentage of wheelchair accessible buses, they will put them on advertised routes so that people know when a wheelchair accessible bus is available. In the interim, before we have an entirely wheelchair accessible fleet, that is best thing to do; that is, getting a certain number for each company and they can then advertise that the 8.20 a.m. service from Miranda to Hurstville will always be wheelchair accessible and so on. The Hon. Dr ARTHUR CHESTERFIELD-EVANS: Can you nominate a date for the public release of the public transport options study for the F6 corridor? Mr JOHN WATKINS: No. The Hon. Dr ARTHUR CHESTERFIELD-EVANS: Can you provide a ballpark figure? Mr JOHN WATKINS: No, because that is not entirely within my ministerial portfolio. The Hon. Dr ARTHUR CHESTERFIELD-EVANS: This seems to be hot potato; everyone seems to be passing it to someone else. Mr JOHN WATKINS: If it were mine, I would tell you. It is certainly not in my ministerial portfolio. TRANSPORT ESTIMATES 44 FRIDAY 8 SEPTEMBER 2006
The Hon. Dr ARTHUR CHESTERFIELD-EVANS: I think the Roads Minister flick passed it to you. Mr JOHN WATKINS: Did he? The Hon. Dr ARTHUR CHESTERFIELD-EVANS: I think that is right. Mr JOHN WATKINS: I will have a word to him about that. The Hon. Dr ARTHUR CHESTERFIELD-EVANS: Yes. Mr JOHN WATKINS: I think the Minister for Planning needs to be asked about that. It is certainly not my responsibility. The Hon. Dr ARTHUR CHESTERFIELD-EVANS: Can you confirm the gazetted status of the corridor? Mr JOHN WATKINS: No. The Hon. Dr ARTHUR CHESTERFIELD-EVANS: Is it dedicated to public and recreational use? Mr JOHN WATKINS: No, I cannot say. The Hon. Dr ARTHUR CHESTERFIELD-EVANS: Is it Minister Sartor's responsibility? Mr JOHN WATKINS: Yes. Ms LEE RHIANNON: The Government has recently removed the requirement for data recording tachographs to be used on coach trips within an 80-kilometre radius of the home base. Given that tachographs were a recommendation of State Coroner following a number of serious coach crashes, why did you amend the Passenger Transport Act to remove the requirement? Mr JOHN WATKINS: It has been a complex issue. Mr GLASSON: I understand that following the Kempsey accidents and the Coroner's findings there has been an alignment in the past 18 months or so of the ministry's standards in accordance with the RTA's standards. We have subsequently had representations from the bus industry about that and the decision has been reversed. The bus industry has been advised accordingly. Ms LEE RHIANNON: Are you saying that what I have just read out is now incorrect? Mr GLASSON: Yes, that decision was reversed. Ms LEE RHIANNON: So the tachographs are now back on, even for short distances? Mr GLASSON: Yes, that is correct. Ms LEE RHIANNON: That is good news. Congratulations. Mr JOHN WATKINS: I think that the Government was faultless in this process. We were following some advice from the industry and so forth, but the matter has been resolved. Ms LEE RHIANNON: I refer to the metropolitan transport co-ordinators [MTCs]. What specific locations are the MTCs focussing on in their work on transport disadvantage? Mr GLASSON: The two metropolitan co-ordinators are working across the metropolitan area. They are engaging with the organisations of councils and with other groups in looking at specific areas of disadvantage where they can attempt to affect improvements. TRANSPORT ESTIMATES 45 FRIDAY 8 SEPTEMBER 2006
Mr JOHN WATKINS: Originally there were no metropolitan transport co-ordinators. There were 11 in regional New South Wales. When I became the Minister I received strong representations from North Eastern Wheatbelt Regional Organisation of Councils [NEWROC], in particular, about the great need for community transport co-ordination. Accordingly, we were able to find the finances to employ two MTCs in Sydney to assist councils, in particular, in their initiatives. Ms LEE RHIANNON: How does their work link in with the bus reform agenda? Mr GLASSON: Their work is essentially targeted at transport disadvantage. That is dealing with targeted programs, such as home and community care, with organisations that have community transport vehicles and with bus companies operating under contract to try to broker more effective networks and community support. Mr JOHN WATKINS: In country New South Wales, the strong view was put that often there are underutilised resources in private bus companies. They do the school run and then park the bus. The idea was that if a community group wanted or needed a regular service during the day—for example, aged people going shopping—perhaps they could use that vehicle. That has been resisted in certain communities and embraced in others. The role of the co-ordinator is to bring that together. It is tougher to achieve that relationship in the city than it is in the country. Ms LEE RHIANNON: Communities are more fractured. Mr JOHN WATKINS: That is correct. Ms LEE RHIANNON: Can you give some examples of the issues they are working on and some of the outcomes? Mr GLASSON: I would need to take that question on notice in terms of specific programs. However, they are working with local councils, local communities and local providers of transport to disadvantaged people to broker improved outcomes. Mr JOHN WATKINS: The Willoughby council has introduced a taxi scheme. Most days of the week—I may be wrong about that—it is contracting taxis and aged residents who want to go somewhere ring the council and booking a fare. I think they get it at a subsidised rate. I think the same council was looking at a regular bus service between Northbridge and Chatswood. That is the type of initiative in which I would want the community transport co-ordinators to get involved; that is, brokering support from the ministry, local councils and taxi companies. We have the capacity to do that and I welcome that work being done. The Hon. JAN BURNSWOODS: You obviously have a detailed knowledge of and commitment to public transport. Can you tell the Committee how you make yourself aware of the daily experiences of commuters? Ms LEE RHIANNON: That is the ultimate Dorothy Dix question. How many trains and buses have you caught? Do you have a diary you can give us with all the examples? The Hon. PETER PRIMROSE: Everyone is interested in your answer, Minister. Mr JOHN WATKINS: I have travelled on public transport every working day since 20 January 2005, the day before I was sworn in. Ms LEE RHIANNON: Did you start using public transport on a regular basis only when you became a Minister? Mr JOHN WATKINS: I used it infrequently prior to that, but I used it. Ms LEE RHIANNON: Fair enough. TRANSPORT ESTIMATES 46 FRIDAY 8 SEPTEMBER 2006
Mr JOHN WATKINS: Until the week ending 25 August, I made 819 single trips on public transport, including 477 on rail and 320 on buses. Many of those trips were to and from work. I live at Ryde, so I can catch the train from West Ryde or the bus from Top Ryde. I have a good public transport service out there. I have travelled on ferries, CountryLink services and the Liverpool to Parramatta transit way. I have travelled north to Casino, Murwillumbah and so on. Today, for example I caught the train back from Kirrawee, where we looked the Clearways project. I set myself this task of using public transport every working day. Because I am a guilt-ridden creature, I now will not breach that. Ms LEE RHIANNON: What are you guilty about, Minister? Mr JOHN WATKINS: I feel guilty if I miss a day. So I do not let myself. Ms LEE RHIANNON: Do you feel guilty when the service fails? Mr JOHN WATKINS: I am appreciative that I do it, because I have seen most of the problems our commuters face from ticket machines on a bus that do not work, to doors not closing on a train, to unpleasant behaviour by patrons and poor driving by bus drivers. It enables me to speak to the director general and other heads of agencies and tell them that we need to fix something. I do not want to boast about it, but it has been very valuable. Probably the most valuable thing I have done is to use it every day. I am stunned by the capacity of the system, the hard work of the men and women who work in it and the forbearance of our travelling public. The Hon. PENNY SHARPE: There are a number of proposals to do with light rail. I wonder if you could give the Committee an update on the latest information about the proposals and the desire to install light rail in the central business district [CBD]? Mr JOHN WATKINS: Yes, I am happy to do that. I am a great proponent of public transport. I want to get more people onto it. In particular we need to do that into the CBD, even though we have a very high rates of movement in and out of the CBD by public transport. But to think that light rail will deliver that for the CBD is romance. As I have said before, most romances are based on hope and false expectation. That is certainly true of light rail in the city. It will not work, it will disrupt this city, it will cause massive congestion and it will come at some cost to the taxpayer. I will just run through the obstacles to light rail in the CBD. Firstly, it requires corridors of Castlereagh and George streets. You would have to sterilise those streets from all other traffic, and if you did that it means you would take out two of the four most important north-south corridors. I do not think you can do that. But if you do not sterilise it, it would mean running trams with traffic. You can only get an operating speed of between 7 kilometres and 9 kilometres an hour. That is quite low for trams. The second issue is that passengers would have to interchange of buses at Central and complete the journey by tram. If you were coming in from West Ryde and wanted to go to Circular Quay you would catch the bus to Central, get off the bus in the rain or the wind or the heat and get on another form of public transport to complete the trip down to have Circular Quay. All studies show that people hate changing from one mode of public transport to another. The third issue is that demand by 2021, and this is the killer fact, will require a 45-second frequency on both corridors. It means you are going to have to have a tram every 45 seconds coming in, filling up and moving on, because that is the number of people who are going to be moving up and down through the CBD. If you run a tram system at 7 kilometres to 9 kilometres an hour you cannot run at 45-second headways. An alternative would be to have longer trams. If you have longer trams you create even more concern for the east-west corridors. The only way you can run trams north-south through the CBD is by giving them priority at each of the east-west corridors—at King Street, at Bligh Street and at Liverpool Street. That means when the tram comes towards the intersection the lights change to green for the tram and through it goes. If you do that with the frequency that is required there will be no movement east-west across the CBD. It will lock up. To think that you can put a tram system into Sydney that will move people is fanciful. If you speak to the proponents, if you speak to the light rail company in Sydney, which does want to see light rail down through CBD to Circular Quay and have a plan for it, they say it will take only 20 per cent of the buses out of the CBD of Sydney. That is what they say. TRANSPORT ESTIMATES 47 FRIDAY 8 SEPTEMBER 2006
The fanciful presentations that are around, some from the Opposition and some from the Council of the City of Sydney, suggest that you will magically get rid of buses off the streets of Sydney. You cannot do that. You cannot have a light rail system that does it. Light rail was taken out of Sydney because of the congestion it caused 50 years ago. The congestion in Sydney is far worse. If you put a light rail system through the CBD you will have chaos. You would basically have to sterilise the Sydney CBD from all private vehicle traffic. I do not think any government is willing to do that. There is other information I could give you about capacity and so on, but light rail trams for Sydney is a romance based on hope and false expectation and any proper analysis of it suggests that that is a foolish way to go. The Hon. PENNY SHARPE: Would you be able to tell us about what we are doing to protect taxi drivers in both metropolitan and regional areas? Mr JOHN WATKINS: I have been particularly concerned. As Minister for Transport one of the greatest concerns I have is when either passengers or public transport workers are injured. That is obvious; I think all Ministers feel that way. But the attacks on bus drivers and taxi drivers have been particularly contentious and worrying. Accordingly, we have taken some steps. First, I announced new measures to improve safety, including the creation of 22 additional secure taxi ranks. These are ranks that have security guards patrolling at them. Currently, in the CBD we have three and one at Manly: there is one down in The Rocks, there is one just near the Governor Macquarie Tower, and there is one in Park Street. They have security guards at them from Saturday evening—it depends what evening it is—Friday, Saturday nights until late into the early hours. They have reduced attacks on customers and bus and taxi drivers markedly. We have also looked at security cameras, making them mandatory as a safety requirement in taxis. I think the time has come for that. Currently, there is a choice: they get either a security camera or a plastic screen. My view quite strongly is that they should have security cameras. They can have the screen if they like but they need security cameras. We have also reviewed penalties for offences like fare evasion and we have also changed the legislation that applies to the sentencing of people who attack public transport workers—that includes taxi drivers, bus drivers, train guards and train drivers. So that it is an aggravating issue in sentencing if someone attacks a public transport worker whilst they are carrying out their work. These are men and women who are just carrying out an essential public service; they should be protected. Public transport workers are now protected in the same grouping as nurses and police, and I think that is legit. I think the secure taxi rank trial in particular is a very good one. It has now been borrowed, apparently, in the United Kingdom: London is looking at it. Secure taxi rank trials were held last summer at Manly, Wagga Wagga, Albury, Griffith, and during the Tamworth Country Music Festival. They were very warmly welcomed and I have announced that we will continue to have them in the Sydney CBD, in Griffith, Albury, Wagga Wagga, Manly and Tamworth, and there are other taxi ranks being considered in other country towns and other parts of Sydney. The Hon. CHARLIE LYNN: Going back to the T-card, the completion date has been delayed until 2008, according to the latest budget paper. On 7 March 2006, the Hon. Eric Roozendaal advised that the T-card would not be fully operational for another three to five years. I would like to ask you who is correct and what is the current roll-out plan for the T-card? I notice all the T-card signs at Martin Place have been painted over. Mr JOHN WATKINS: The fact that money is provided in the forward estimates is not an issue about completion. That money is provided in the budget and the forward estimates is a fact: there will be an ongoing cost for the T-card, certainly in the establishment years. That is not a pointer towards the kick-off date. So even when T-card commences there will be a drawdown on the budget, as indeed there currently is. Each of the agencies has a considerable cost in running a ticketing system. If that ticketing system is taken over by the Public Transport Ticketing Corporation there still will be an ongoing cost. That is why it is in the budget and in the forward estimates. As for the three to five-year full take-up, that is highly likely because the full take-up of T- card always envisaged not just ticketing but also other products being loaded onto it. So that the T- card, as an electronic credit card, if you like, could be used for other purposes. So it depends what other purposes you lend the T-card to down the track. In a sense, it will not be finished because it will TRANSPORT ESTIMATES 48 FRIDAY 8 SEPTEMBER 2006
be developing technology, as indeed these types of cards have been overseas. I can envisage a day when someone will be able to purchase a newspaper or some other public transport product with their T-card, or a car park, for example, will be able to electronically transfer funds. Your question about the roll-out: a trial of the bus, October; rail, the plan is later this year, early next year; roll-out of the T-card, next year through rail and bus followed by ferry. So we are expecting basically the full operational roll-out of the T-card to occur in the calendar year 2007. But there will be ongoing development of the T-card in the future. The Hon. JAN BURNSWOODS: 2007-08. Mr JOHN WATKINS: Yes, 2008. And that is probably what Eric Roozendaal was referring to. CHAIR: It being six o'clock, I would like to thank you, Minister, and Mr Glasson for your time. (The witnesses withdrew) The Committee proceeded to deliberate. _______________ TRANSPORT ESTIMATES 49 FRIDAY 8 SEPTEMBER 2006
ERG Price at posting:
0.0¢ Sentiment: Buy Disclosure: Held
(20min delay)
